Debate: Absalom vs Manson

When faced with the mass of people that spread out in front of that stage, the Professor couldn’t help but think it considerably larger than what you’d expect of a debate crowd. It seemed those that had put him up to that were correct with their assumption that a Chief Mage’s presence would be enough spark the interest of the people. He wasn’t a fan of of mediatic events, but since he was there already he should try to have some fun.

‘'The use of mundane medical techniques is capable of usurping the use of magic'

A debate involving medicine and magic, between the Public Health Commissioner and the Chief Mage. It seemed V’Errmite had been placed there with the blatant purpose of rebutting the claim, meaning his opponent was probably someone that agreed with the statement. Taking all of this into consideration, it had been a fortunate coincidence that they let Absalom go first.
After preparing his throat, he stood and up and begun his piece-

“A good afternoon, Ladies and Gentlemen of the audience. I feel that before I reveal my arguments I should clarify that for the purposes of the 'Mundane Medicine vs Magic' debate, we should only refer to the healing techniques of sorcery, rather than to all the different disciplines that comprise magic as a whole.” It was important to clear things like that from the start so that no misunderstanding would occur. “After All, It’d make no sense to include other disciplines whose goal diviates from Medicine's since they are in no danger of being usurped by it”
Clearing his throat he continued, now ready to unravel a small piece of trickery he had decided to do.




The space went quiet, but only for a second. Mumbling throughout the crowd soon unfolded as people realised what had just happened, how Dracon’s most renowned authority on the magical had just seemingly conceded victory to his opponent.

“ I will present arguments to sustain this claim on three fronts: The effectiveness of the methods, their ease when compared to magic, and other overall advantages existent in avoiding magic. Of course, before that I’ll pass the word to my adversary so that he can present his case and explain to us why he disagrees with this claim.”

Absalom had his usual poker face set up, but a slight grin could be noticed if one was perceptive enough. What he had done was no less than issuing an intellectual challenge; all he hoped was that the young man he was dueling was interested enough to play along.

With the introductions finished, Absalom had a clearer idea of who Manson Doktore was, and he was quite pleased with his opponent.
Those enrolled in his classes knew this fact well;Professor V’Errmite was a kind teacher, but he was not the kind to hold back his punches and only trully clever individuals should attempt to debate it. He couldn’t help but wonder if his stunt had been a bit too much for the event, but he was glad to see that the man in front of him wasn’t too upset over it.

“Ah, well. As we say in the Academy, no use for lollygagging!”- the man cleared his throat one last time signaling that the pleasantries were over and the real debate was about to start."

“As I mentioned before, I am going to start by presenting why I consider Medicine a far more effective method of treatment than Magic.”- The truth was that his knowledge on the ability also gave him quite the insight on it’s least famous flaws . “You see, healing magic’s greatest strength comes from how easy it is. One can heal wounds and injuries without knowing the first thing about the affliction causing them. Of course, that’s also it’s most dire weakness! It’s focus is completely on treating symptoms, rather than discovering the underlying condition! A man whose teeth were lost to scurvy could easily have them fixed by Magic, but that wouldn’t fix his eating habits. Eventually, other issues would surface and they would prove far more dire than some missing teeth.”-  That last comment got some giggles off the audience. His first arguement had been delivered and now it was up to his adversary to come up with a retort.

“I think it’s fair to assume such a massive flaw outright prevents magic from being as effective as it’s mundane counterpart.”

The man presented facts as if the podium was a dissection table. He was a keen intellectual but his true thoughts over the matter seeped into the argument. His previous attacks had had a certain acidity to them, but they weren’t at all bulletproof.
“Mr.Doktore has committed a minor flaw in his reasoning. Like he said, it’d would be ‘stupid’ to overlook facts. Indeed, a mage can inspect the behaviour of his patient just like a doctor would, to try to understand the underlying cause. But then he wouldn’t be acting as a mage at all, he would be acting like a doctor an using magic as a tool.
And don’t take me wrong! Magic is a powerful tool, but it’s not a versatile one. If the potions and elixirs commonly sold to adventurers have taught us anything, is that the there are methods that rival magic’s speed and effectiveness, even on the battlefield, all due to the evolution of Medical science.”- The old man gazed at his opponent and then at the crowd, seeing a multitude of faces locked unto the stage. It seems their debate was fulfilling everyone's expectations and more.

He resumed his assessment, with his speech having a certain rhythm to it. Although it retained a constant sense of calmness, it was without a doubt an imposing voice. “In fact, the only reason we even know of  what “Scurvy”  is, is due to Medicine having studied, named, and learned about what that condition! If Medicine didn’t exist, all diseases and aflictions would be reduced to symptoms since there would be no method to differentiate them, and magic would either fix those them or be useless.    The inverse statement, however, isn't true at all.  If magic stopped existing, Medicine could eventually be able to evolve to a perfect substitute...
New treatments are in constant development, and there’s no limit to their effectiveness or variety. Today’s boundaries are broken tomorrow. Magic on the other hand has had a much slower growth, and much more focused on the individual. In fact, other than geniuses that pop every so often, healing sorceries have been roughly the same effectiveness for centuries.”

Taking a short pause, Absalom looked into his opponents eyes, into his attempts at toppling over his argument.  Mercelessly, he continued his claim.
"It's not a fair fight to begin with, since Magic is a single method, and Medicine is a broad term for hundreds of them! In the end, it eventually comes down to the question: Is Magic really more effective than every other possible treatment imaginable, combined?   Of course not!"

Upon hearing those words, it didn’t take long for the crowd to abandon its previous silence, and begin whispering and gossiping incessantly. Although a certain level of inner-talking was expected from the audience, it would be wrong to blame the ‘strength’ of the arguments as the reason behind the chatter. Manson’s second piece on the debate had been very personal, barely scratching the topic of the discussion but stirring the people’s interest for discovering skeletons hidden in other's closets.


 Absalom had both his eyes closed, with a stern expression in his face as he pondered the situation. His pointer finger massaged the bridge of his nose, stroking it up and down as he tried to decide on what to do.

You see, from an academic point of view one could say Manson's argument had been deplorable, but his emotional evolvement was far too great to begin with. A a true objective discussion was impossible. His previous comments had been mainly attacks at people and organizations, rather than true arguments for his side. Because of this, it was in the Mage’s full capability to counter all of what had been said, and crucify his opponent for his attitude.
 He couldn't help but ponder..Did that behaviour even classify as debate? Explaining to an orphan why his parents could not have saved? Clearing someone’s perception of magic, thus removing the enemy that had very likely allowed them to make it this far?

It might have been condescending on his part, but the elder could not stop imagining Manson as a young boy, crying over his parent’s death...

 Regardless, this debate was battle for the truth. Everyone there knew Absalom had impeccable conduct in battles of the mind, and showing such content against the setting would not be allowed.

His eyes opened and everyone in the room instantly began to quiet down, awaiting the man’s response- “ Magic… Is not a servant of mankind. Despite the names we give to it, Mana is no different from Life itself! It is a force of nature, just as wild and powerful as storms or the ocean! Knowledge can be passed down to help one understand it, but what Mages do is never anything other than humbly trying to guide the energy somewhere where it may be more useful.”

Although there were quite a few Valentine sorcerers watching the debate, none was shocked to hear their superior utter those words. It was a truth that in one way or the another, they had all experienced.
“We study the phenomenon, we discover what we can do, we refine what talent we have so that it’s worth more...In the end, we grow where our efforts and our means allows us, and never more than that.
 The theory that magical progress can be made mechanic; your theory that the lack of progress is due to Mages not trying hard enough… It is absolutely moronic, as it does not only disrespect scholars everywhere, it ignores the most fundamental facts about Magic we know.” His voice was loud and could be heard even far away, now in a much more active tone than before. It was intimidating but free of malice, similar to a grown man scolding a child’s naughty behaviour.

"It's obvious you're using Magic as an..."

The moment finally came. Manson Doktore had gone past the boundaries of academic discussion. Those that knew the code of conduct knew that it was time for the execution, for the veteran to call out his opponent’s lack of ethic in front of them all. All the sages gazed upon Manson with hungry  wolf eyes, awaiting his punishment.


“Now..I...Uhm...Forgive me, but could I perhaps be given a short break?”- said Absalom, in a far less imposing tone.

“I..Seem to be experiencing some issues. The sort of problems that go hand-in-hand with age, you see...”

The wolves would not have their meal and the venomous insults that had been thrown would be forgotten. In the end, the old man was unable to follow through.

"Hmmmm... curious.  Either the old man's inability to maintain his momentum saved him... or he saw it coming."

While the Mages were waiting for an execution, Manson had been far more than a single step ahead.  He was expecting the axe, he knew that what he had put forward would have naturally seemed illogical to a Mage, let alone the head of Valentine.  He had wanted to walk Absalom into his own little pit of fire, but it seemed clear that the older gentleman wasn't having any of that.  It was rather unfortunate that Absalom's concern for the young man who watched his parents die was completely wasted.  While it was clear that Manson would never speak of the incident itself, it did not hide any burgeoning issues or deep pains for him.  It had simply happened a long time ago now.  Manson had grown up.  It wasn't that he didn't love his parents or that he was glad they were gone it was just... too far off of a memory.  To Manson it was like the time he stubbed his toe when he was 5.  He could remember everything about the experience clearly but... that happened years ago, was it really something to start feeling pain about again? 

He sighed at the intermission.  He spent the entire thing on stage, refusing to budge from his spot.  The only things he did were reorganizing his papers, and then turning his back to the audience for a moment while he took out a white cloth.  He licked his thumb and index before taking off his glasses and rubbing the lenses with his activated gloves.  Exactly three seconds of letting the alcohol dry went by before he cleaned them to a shine, turning back around to face the audience and adjusting the frames neatly.  The glare from his pristine lenses was so luminous it was annoying.  He then neatly folded up the cloth and placed it into his vest pocket before taking out a lighter and casually lighting the same thumb and index with it.  A person or two yelped slightly in the audience at the sight of his fingers aflame, but he let the alcohol burn so calmly that it went completely ignored.  A quick blow on his hand snuffed the flame out and he coldly rubbed his fingers on his jacket before returning to waiting for Absalom.  He looked as ready to debate as ever, irritatingly stout in his posture and meeting the elder's eyes with completely frozen serenity.

"Before we begin, I would like to apologize for a... slight bit of intellectual dishonesty."

The venomous glares returned in full force.  Intellectual dishonesty?  The man had just dared to question the process of how Magic even functions, and he was supposed to be arguing FOR the use of Magic!  Intellectual dishonesty was the least of Manson's problems in the eyes of the Valentine Mages attending.

"When making my previous point I quoted our illustrious history to make it clear why it is that the progress of medicine is not by any virtue of the method itself, and that in fact the same rules apply for magic which refutes Mr. V'errmite's point that medicine is inherently superior simply because it has progressed so quickly.  I made a mistake however.  I will take you back to the beginning of our debate, where the definition of "Magic" was defined.  To quote Mr. V'errmite:

I feel that before I reveal my arguments I should clarify that for the purposes of the 'Mundane Medicine vs Magic' debate, we should only refer to the healing techniques of sorcery, rather than to all the different disciplines that comprise magic as a whole.

This is where I have made something of an error.  You see, I made references to the art of war, and of war magics in particular.  This is in contradiction to the definitions set out by my opponent and for that I apologize. I believe I had become somewhat hot-headed as one is wont to be when debating a worthy opponent. Thus... I request that my previous argument be disregarded in the interest of academic concurrency."

Well this was a bit of a downer.  Manson had essentially taken back his previous weapon, and thus dodged a proper skewering by Absalom upon the topic of Magic.  Of course this wasn't all roses, as it was not beneficial to your cause to have it known that an entire argument of yours had to be annulled by oneself.  Arguments were the very substance of a debate, and while their quality was a neccessity, having less of them was only a detriment. 

"However Mr. V'errmite I believe that you too have committed a similar mistake, though I suppose I must accept a small amount of blame as well.  I thought you a man who would avoid the same mistakes someone as young as me is wont to make, but it is somewhat disheartening to hear you say, and I quote:

"It's not a fair fight to begin with, since Magic is a single method, and Medicine is a broad term for hundreds of them! In the end, it eventually comes down to the question: Is Magic really more effective than every other possible treatment imaginable, combined? Of course not!"

You see Mr. V'errmite I made an error in my argument because you properly defined the topic of our discussion as only HEALING magic.  I used examples of non-healing magic.  However you have found it most convenient to make references to every single healing method available.  You also ignore the fact that Potions and Alchemical draughts have at least 30% of their cost wrapped in ingredients produced by Magical Botany students at Valentine.  The healing Potion is impossible to make WITHOUT magic.  Then when you reference 'every single healing method available' that allows you to also reference methods that could use mundane methods AND magic.  I find it rather sad that you would argue on this basis, so I will have to properly define the argument for you as well.  Our argument, in the pursuit of intellectual honesty, should be defined as thus:

For the sake of clarity in this debate, in the terms of Magic due to it's myriad uses and applications, which can mix with mundane medicine in most cases, we should be referring specifically to the healing techniques of sorcery.  Similarly, due to the nearly infinite methods and applications of mundane medicine that is also wont to even cross over with magic we should define our references specifically to the practice of... surgery."

A chill went through the room as he uttered the word.  Surgery.  It was talked about in Demetrik's Lex Nervosa as a method to slap together more complex undead when presented with base parts that had potential but were attached to sub-par bodies.  It was the very crux of Manson's expertise, and it was both the sword he wielded as a healer and a wall between him and society.  No one understood Surgery still.  Manson was a lone scion in that lost and forbidden field of knowledge.  He'd been called a necromancer multiple times, he'd only been able to prove his innocence with his inability to use magic.  The idea of even cutting into someone, and without any magic to heal the wound was complete anathema.  Everyone save his own patients and those who saw his work first hand still thought he was lying when he said he could cut you open, peer around in your guts, and then seal you back up with no harm done.  You'd be walking around in a week at the worst.  It was still a complete mystery to Terrans how he could do such a thing, and even more mind-boggling that somehow cutting you open could help!

He wondered how Absalom would take it though.  He would be surprised if the elder mage showed any reaction at all beyond a jovial laugh.  He surely wasn't one to be spooked now was he?  However Manson knew one thing for sure.  Absalom could not attempt to weasel his way out of this.  He had been the one to provide a definition to the argument in the first place.  Manson had wholly accepted it.  Manson had all the right to provide his own definition to even things up, and by retracting his previous argument he had opened the way for him to properly provide it without looking like he was changing arguments half-way to suit him.  The provision of a definition also had the effect of rendering Absalom's previous argument moot because it violated the terms of the debate's definitions.  The only way to keep it would be to contest, and that would give Manson cause to contest, and Absalom would be holed into a place where he either had to argue on the behalf of a science that was only just slightly below Pact Magic, or open the field and scrap all definitions.  Either way you were giving Manson a sword, you were simply choosing how you wanted your neck slit.

"Now then, Mr. V'errmite as you were the one who was presenting an argument might I ask you to finish that statement properly before you asked for an intermission?"

He wondered if he could, now that Manson had sent them back to the very beginning of the debate in the first place.

Manson sighed at the arguments provided, placing his face squarely into his palm while Absalom gave his thoughts. How... disappointing. The young man almost wanted to cry. Absalom's reply was... such a profound let-down. Manson was expecting something, anything other than what Absalom had come up with. It was the same damned shit as before, the same damned trite that every other Mage had spouted at him in his school days. He felt truly alone. He sighed once again as his stance slackened and he rested on his podium, a look of complete boredom. The Valentine Mages smiled, to them it seemed like Absalom had broken the young man and garnered a glorious victory for Valentine. They could keep their sense of indignation. Manson comforted himself with the thoughts that they would fade into irrelevancy as history worked as it did and properly selected true innovation.

"Spirit of the topic huh? You're fucking around cause you know you can't actually make a proper argument. Apples and Oranges huh? Real good analogy, a classic I like it. So I'm willing to admit mistakes and accept your definition but your highness the god king Chief Mage just caaaaaaan't make a single boo boo oooooooh nooooooo.

So I guess let's just ignore the fact that healing magic involves just as many myriad methods and applications.

I guess we'll just ignore the fact that healing magic also has the focus of increasing longevity and quality of life as well.

While we're in the business of ignoring facts and creating the perfect world of Absalom where he doesn't have trouble getting a stiffy let's also ignore the fact that I've had to make Potions at my years at Faustus and that the healing effects produced by them do not work on any normal biological processes at all. Let's just completely ignore that Valentine Academy is the number one producer of Savior Root, the very herb that can only be bred under totally unnatural circumstances that would never exist in the real world. So while the Potions themselves are not enchanted their constituent parts most certainly are. Oh but we're playing in the world of Absalom, so I guess that's 'irrelevant' to you, or perhaps it doesn't 'follow the spirit of the topic'.

Let's ignore the fact that you've totally side-stepped my arguments thus far and have had no actual intention of a debate.

Let's keep on ignoring, wow it's great to be you isn't it Absalom? Wow this is really so easy, can I be a student of yours? Must be so nice to preach stupidity and get paid for it."

All formality was officially lost on Manson. The audience began to chatter and considered roaring to have the man torn from his podium. However what they would never admit was that Absalom never truly had tried to take him on the points he made. Manson was quite used to this climate by now. It happened every other time he had debated a Mage, and with Absalom's behavior it would happen every single time for sure. Mages were a lost cause. So long as there was even the inkling of some idea that encroached upon their sovereignty they would gather like vultures and swarm in with the same uninformed bullshit they always had.

"Okay so you're going to go with the birth argument. Fine. Let's see how you sidestep this one good sir, it will be quite a show for everyone I'm sure. Alright, so one in three are mages hmm? Well based on several tests for critical thinking and overall intelligence that I've done, only one in forty-seven have the requirements to actually BE a Doctor like yours truly. At the very least Magic allows an old coot such as yourself to heal, though, since we're playing by your rules let's just completely ignore the fact that a certain Absalom V'errmite has displayed no such written literature involving such healing arts. In fact let's just quietly omit the fact that less than twelve percent of Valentine graduates have graduated from the Academy with specialties in healing. Let's just try to forget that despite the fact that the lot of you could be humbly directing the energy of Life itself somewhere where that energy could be more useful such as... perhaps... hmmm... Life itself?

Oh but that sounds similar to a point I made before. Let's just forget that.

Let's just forget that intelligence is a gift much like magic. I'll make sure to forget this one for you, since I'm certainly not jealous of your ability to shit fire. Let's just forget that intelligence is a quality that, while it can be honed, still requires a great deal more effort and time that no one save yours truly has to put in. You can certainly educate the stupid. You can even make the stupid quite smart.

But you can't make anyone stupid into me.

What separates me from a maniac with a knife Absalom? What makes me different from any necromancer? The first is knowledge. The second is that I don't revive the dead, only save the living. I am not any simple Healer you old coot. I am not some common dandy wishing away people's cuts like a fairy. Public Health Commissioner I may be, but that is fundamentally a title. What I AM is a Doctor, and I guess your forgetful mind just totally lapsed when it came to the idea of qualifications. Yes, you know, those dumb things you had to get so you could graduate? Though I suppose you forgot. It's just the thing you do.

I am a man whose vast qualifications and experience make him able to perform the craft you speak of. The paltry examinations performed by what you dare to call 'medicine' are child's play compared to me. I have performed over four thousand surgical procedures with a ninety-eight percent success rate. I have saved literally thousands of lives, and you know what the real kicker is you amnesiac old coot? I am not an iconoclast. I am the bare standard. The quality of care I provide is eons beyond what you are even considering. It is the quality of care I would expect for myself, and the quality of care that every single man, woman, and child of Terra Heroum DEMAND of me. Even STILL they are wary of medicine, and do you know why? Because even if one in three people are born a mage, if they can heal then they're automatically more common than a truly qualified Doctor. Even if someone is dying of a stomach ulcer, they would still be wary of surgery because it is a nearly extinct art.

Oh but hey didn't you mention some nonsense about how my knowledge could be used to inform others? You really sure about that? Might wanna double check Demetrik then! I think it'd be a good idea, after all he existed over four hundred years ago! Plenty of time for his wonderful techniques to spread throughout Terra wouldn't you say? Oh but you forgot again didn't you? THEY WERE LEFT TO ROT. NO ONE was able to utilize the Lex Nervosa or the Ars Arioche beyond a few stupid attempts at necromancy save for ME. So do you really think that my knowledge can simply be passed on so easily? You really think that anyone else can simply pick up my dissertations, read through them, and then go "Mmhmm, yep, I'm a regular old Manson Doktore I am good sir". Then why don't I give you my scalpel old man? I've got a child coming in for an appendectomy tomorrow, you're plenty wise enough to remove it aren't you? I will profess that if I did have the gift of magic, I would be quite confident in solving that slight curve in your spine without any surgical procedures. Imagine if I DID have the gift of magic Absalom. You'd be nothing but another student. So if you're truly so sure that medical procedures can be so easily learned, then let's have a go old man. Let's see how you do.

Oh but I guess we should just forget about all of that since it's you we're dealing with, and before you open that big trap of yours let me be clear that I couldn't give two shits about your opinion on the 'proper conduct of an intellectual debate'. You want to debate me as an intellectual, why don't you start using that rotting little pile of cells in your skull you call a brain and actually think for once."